C3's question thread

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rambomhtri
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:11 am

farottone wrote:
rambomhtri wrote:After all my messages, is it that your question?


Yes, I want to know if you are a straight up liar or if somebody actually told you that it's wrong for you to listen to multitracks (which isn't a scandal in itself, but I would like to debate that). You are saying that somebody from our group did that, please provide some proof of that: quote of what was said to you, by whom, when. Anything else you say is really unimportant: you don't understand simple business and licensing logics so it makes no sense to continue on that path. A number of people have explained to you why, you don't understand very very simple concepts (just the fact that you think that an MP3 available from thousands if not hundred of thousands of sources is as valuable and as in need of protection than something only available from one single source boggles the mind), there is no way of making you understand. I'm a C3 founder and admin, I have explained why, people here have all understood except you. You are clearly lacking basic knowledge of business, licensing, optics, etc. so it's not worth it repeating things that you won't understand.


Are you kidding me?
Lying? You may consider I am a liar? Are you dumb or you're just trolling?
Do you think I come here and start making up stories to have fun? :confused:

I didn't know you were from C3. Alright, then I can talk to you directly, cause I thought you were just a random user.

Why do you consider sharing mixes is safer than sharing multitracks, if both are illegal?
You are all the time saying I am then only one who does not understand why, but surprise, no one here has given a solid reason to that why. Prove is that from time to time there's a new argument. First the argument that says "it costs lots of money to create a master track", then that "you can steal master tracks", now you say they are way more dangerous cause there are less sources.
Less sources? One single source?
For your personal information, every single master track is in every single CD game, and there are millions and millions of CD games over the world. MILLIONS. Every single person with a PS3 and a CD game can play in practice mode and boom, listen to that weird, so difficult to get master track. Now, you buy a $40 capture card for PS3, as I have, and you become a source. It's really, really difficult, uh?
The newer the argument is, the less sense it makes. This is getting beyond absurdness.

Less sources, wow. I mean, if you were in the music industry and secretly stole master tracks from albums that are not anywhere else, then I could understand why you wouldn't share them. Indeed, you wouldn't talk to anyone about that. But we are talking about music games, millions of CD's, millions of kids playing these games.
You are confused, it's not that there are less sources, because actually there are WAY MORE sources of multitracks than allbum CD's, cause Guitar Hero's have been sold way more than albums, so yeah, there are way more sources. What it is less is the demand of it, that's way smaller, no one cares about multitracks, except a little percentage of music lovers and musicians.

Now, here comes the quotes of TrojanNemo, PMed me:
He (bluzer) doesn't want you to use it for anything else, and when you do, you're doing something that he doesn't condone and the community does not like. Nobody can stop you from doing what you want (except forum admins here and on C3 can will ban you if you continue with that attitude). But you should not act like you're entitled to anything, because you are not.

He talks about licenses and stuff, but he has no problem at all to tell me what bluzer thinks. Lack of logic everywhere. Even the community does not like that I listen to master tracks. Wow, he thinks he can talk as an entire community. Then he says I shouldn't act like I'm entitled to anything (apparently, listen to master tracks outside the game and being mad at someone that tells me I shouldn't do that, is acting like and entitled punk). Wow, the master of hypocrisy. And if you did not notice, he threatens me with banning. Banning for listening to master tracks through VLC instead of the game itself.
You know, after reading all that sh*t, I think you can imagine why did I create this thread, trying to discovers what's really going on with multitracks and what is so dangerous about them.

I know you think that somehow makes what you're doing right, but it doesn't. Bluzer provides these for use in the game. Any other use is not condoned and he has every right to be upset. The others that contribute to what he does also are upset because they do what they do for the games.


That is exactly right. You're downloading from a thread titled "...for Phase Shift" - what makes you think the files are there for any other reason? This whole forum is for music game players.


If you're here using the files found on this site for other uses than to play the video games they're for, you should at least shut up about it and enjoy it in silence, since they are NOT created or provided for your use.


C3 is a group that creates custom songs to be played in Rock Band 3. These sometimes have multitrack audio that can't be found anywhere else, and they are encrypted to protect them from people like you. Precisely because C3 creates them for the game. Any other use, is not authorized and we don't want you to do it. Simple as that.

You guys encrypt your stuff to protect it from people like ME! :scared:
Yeah, stay away from me, I'm a very bad person that does really evil things with master tracks, like listening to them in VLC, I know, it's so, so evil. encrypt the encryption so I can never access to master tracks, I could do some terrible things.

And all these quotes are not out of context, they are pretty clear and self-explaining. He was answering me to a PM I sent him where I told him I was mad at 2 users that told me I'm not welcome here if I listen to master tracks outside the game. If I'm in this forum, I must be a gamer and only a gamer, any other kind of person is not welcome. So it's obvious why I where mad at them.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:46 am

rambomhtri wrote: I was mad at 2 users that told me I'm not welcome here if I listen to master tracks outside the game.


And those are not C3 members, and Nemo was explaining what those users were saying. The message was clear: if you want to listen to those mutlitracks that are meant to be used in the game, do it, but it's a byproduct, don't question the motives if some songs are mixed down. So, next time you say a C3 member said this or that, make sure it actually happened please, beucase what happened here is Nemo explaining what bluzer was saying.

All the answers you needed were on the 3rd post in this thread (in which I said "we" in reference to C3, so that could have been a giveaway...) and on the many examples and anecdotes that other users who understood the issue right away posted. Do you like listening to clean studio multitracks and they are as readily available as simple MP3 files? Ok, then just download them and listen to them from any of the multiple sources available for them. I don't get why you would even care about C3: if you want to listen to multitracks, according to you they are as readily available as MP3s, so go download them.

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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:19 am

farottone wrote:
rambomhtri wrote: I was mad at 2 users that told me I'm not welcome here if I listen to master tracks outside the game.


And those are not C3 members, and Nemo was explaining what those users were saying. The message was clear: if you want to listen to those mutlitracks that are meant to be used in the game, do it, but it's a byproduct, don't question the motives if some songs are mixed down. So, next time you say a C3 member said this or that, make sure it actually happened please, beucase what happened here is Nemo explaining what bluzer was saying.

All the answers you needed were on the 3rd post in this thread (in which I said "we" in reference to C3, so that could have been a giveaway...) and on the many examples and anecdotes that other users who understood the issue right away posted. Do you like listening to clean studio multitracks and they are as readily available as simple MP3 files? Ok, then just download them and listen to them from any of the multiple sources available for them. I don't get why you would even care about C3: if you want to listen to multitracks, according to you they are as readily available as MP3s, so go download them.


OK, enough with you, you clearly don't know how to read, even when it's quoted and clearly exposed. TrojanNemo did not say at all that listening to tracks outside the game is bad, not welcome, and threatened me with banning. He did not talked at all like trying to represent other people and even whole communities. That did not happened at all, I'm just crazy. I'll make sure it happened actually, of course, sorry, I just have nightmares sometimes.

They are not as easy to get as MP3, you don't get nothing right, damn. They are way more sources of it, which is not the same as "there are more web pages of them". There are plenty more sources, but way, way, way less demand, and that's exactly why there are less sites sharing multitracks. But you can listen to them in the video games, and you just need a cheap capture card for consoles to get the master tracks you claim are so, so, so difficult to obtain.

As I told you, I'm curious about C3 because of the aggressiveness of the reply from TrojanNemo, and because I don't understand why you feel like more confident or safer if you only share the mixes. You are doing illegal stuff anyways sharing copyrighted content, and the very same kind of illegal stuff. So if you're afraid of illegal things, I don't get why you share mixes. That's what I wanted to know. But you clearly just troll all my messages, quoting just the less importat thing you can find in my messages.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby m1999 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:43 am

So if you're afraid of illegal things, I don't get why you share mixes.

Mixes - Supposed to be out in the public (they are supposed to be paid for, but still)
Stems - Not supposed to be out in the public (outside of the games)

therefore:

Mixes - Illegal
Stems - Even more illegal

it's as simple as that. AFAIK, they're just trying to be as safe as possible, but without making it inconvenient for the people who want to play their customs.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:05 am

rambomhtri wrote:OK, enough with you.


Praise jeebus.

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Re: C3's question thread

Postby raynebc » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:21 am

rambomhtri wrote:The time you play practice mode, boom, you only hear a master track isolated. So...

You're not getting it. You're allowed by the rights-holders to listen to that audio IN-GAME. They're fine with that. They're not fine with that audio being taken and used outside of the game.

I'm here to ask WHY C3 feels more confident to upload a mix rather than a multitrack song, if anyways both of them have copyright and anyways what they're doing is wrong to the music industry cause it's illegal to share copyrighted content, if I'm not wrong.

The stereo mixes of songs are already EXTREMELY available for sale and illegal download everywhere. Stems are much higher level property so C3 is trying to do the least amount of harm (by keeping the stems encrypted) while still accomplishing what they want (provide full featured custom charts for Rock Band).

And what lie did I say?

That the stereo mix is more valuable, even though we've corrected you on this previously. Both the stereo mix and the stems are copyrighted, but the latter is more valuable, no amount of arguing from you will change that.

did you noticed that in my last post up here I said that they only steal 4-5 seconds and loop it 'till Earth dies?

Irrelevant. You missed my point. As a whole, stereo mixes offer less audio that can be stolen and re-used without recognition. Stems allow any part of any instrument track to be accessed so the theft and unauthorized re-use could occur quite easily without people knowing.

But farottone is completely right. If you don't get it by now, you're unable or unwilling to evolve your understanding on the matter. It's not worth wasting more of my time.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:02 am

m1999 wrote:
So if you're afraid of illegal things, I don't get why you share mixes.

Mixes - Supposed to be out in the public (they are supposed to be paid for, but still)
Stems - Not supposed to be out in the public (outside of the games)

therefore:

Mixes - Illegal
Stems - Even more illegal


Well, the "even more illegal" expression is kind of absurd. Both are illegal for the same reason: copyright. We're not comparing something like:

-It's illegal to share a film over the internet, but it's way more illegal to sell drugs.

I mean, we're talking about the very same copyright issues, the very same "illegality", so I think you can agree with me about that.

And... what do you mean by "they are not supposed to be out"? I answer.

They are out, outer than outer. They are in every single CD, you can listen to them isolated in every single PS3/XBox/Wii, it's easy as pie to record them at very high quality. We're not talking about something people can't access to, something like C3 had stolen master tracks no one else have. If a band is dumb enough, and useless enough, to steal a master track, they just need a PS3 and a $40 capture card for consoles, and there they go. They don't need at all C3 members stuff, at all (though they think they are so necessary in the process). There are even tutorials on YouTube of 8 years old kids teaching you how to record your sound and image out of your console. You can even use a cable and a PC to do it.

So the point is that we're not talking about secret stuff, really well protected. We're talking about something every single kid with a console can listen to, and every single kid with a console can record it with a very high audio quality (even lossless).That's what we're talking about.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby TrojanNemo » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:05 am

TrojanNemo wrote:You seem to have this delusion that you have to understand things for them to be right. I don't know why farottone continues to entertain your questions, maybe because he's so nice. But my point stands, C3 doesn't have to explain its actions to you. As I said before, things are the way they are. They're not going to change. We all understand that you don't understand. Now move on, continue your life. That's it.


Since we're quoting me so much, let's quote my post from over two months ago. I'm quite surprised to see this has continued going and people have felt the need to humor him.

I gave you the answer as to WHY very early on. Because. That's it. Nobody owes you an explanation. And for some reason they've tried to give it to you, and you've refused it, as if saying "hey, I don't like that explanation, give me another one."

No.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:23 am

m1999 wrote:Mixes - Illegal
Stems - Even more illegal


It's really not the legality, we've said this in our first post: "Copyright is not the issue here: nobody has any rights on anything, so the entire customs community should be shut down using that logic." It's about individual stems being available outside of the scope of the original licensing. An Mp3 file can be purchased and shared, that's piracy. But no label or artist (well, almost) would think of objecting to the deal just because piracy exists. Now, stems on the other hand are licensed to videogame developers, TV stations, developers of instructional tools, etc. *on the condition that they are used in that context*. If the stems leave that context, now THAT is when the label/artist has cause to object, because it means that the licensee has broken the contract or hasn't implemented enough measures to make sure that the stems are kept inside the walled garden. At that point the labels/artists can rescind the deal, much like EW&F did. Obviously it's a matter of degrees: how easy is it to get to those stems? If it's very difficult, labels will probably close an eye. Labels HAVE closed an eye on Harmonix even when the decryption algorithm was broken, but HMX stepped up their security measures and developed new encryption methods or used stronger keys.

Think of it like this: you discover that an amazing concert venue actually has a backdoor where you can sneak in. If you call one friend, let him in and every time that there's a concert you both sneak in the venue, probably nobody will notice and nobody will close it. But if you call all your friends and publish a blog where you invite people to take advantage of the backdoor, promoters will notice and may skip the venue to avoid lessen revenue and the venue managers will almost certainly close the backdoor, and you won't be able to access it anymore. :)

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Re: C3's question thread

Postby TrojanNemo » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:30 am

farottone wrote:Think of it like this: you discover that an amazing concert venue actually has a backdoor where you can sneak in. If you call one friend, let him in and every time that there's a concert you both sneak in the venue, probably nobody will notice and nobody will close it. But if you call all your friends and publish a blog where you invite people to take advantage of the backdoor, promoters will notice and may skip the venue to avoid lessen revenue and the venue managers will almost certainly close the backdoor, and you won't be able to access it anymore. :)


IT'S NOT THE SAME THING. Stop comparing coke to music. Jeez, please read read his posts, since he's not reading anyone else's. Don't make analogies, metaphors, similes, allegories - OP will not understand.

When we first began PM'ing about this asinine line of questions, I thought his was a language issue. I thought, maybe English isn't his first language, and this whole confusion is because his English is not very good. But no, it turns out, his comprehension issue is just that, a comprehension issue. Nothing to do with the language.

Reading his posts I think of this guy:

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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:49 pm

TrojanNemo wrote:I'm quite surprised to see this has continued going and people have felt the need to humor him.

People are free to talk about what they want, people have different feelings than yours. So don't act that surprised, this is a free world where everybody can argue with whoever he wants and the time he considers necessary.

TrojanNemo wrote:I gave you the answer as to WHY very early on. Because. That's it.

Your answer was answered by me, and your answer was not enough and did not make any sense to me to stop sharing multitracks. And yeah, if you say you don't share them because pineapples are yellow, it's not enough. If you say it's because they cost a lot of money to produce, it's not enough for me, it makes no sense. So yeah, I created this post to find out why C3 team stopped sharing multitracks because it makes no sense to me, and I can't find a solid reason since money is not involved here.

TrojanNemo wrote:Nobody owes you an explanation.

Thank you, but I knew it. That's why you can read and don't comment here.

TrojanNemo wrote:And for some reason they've tried to give it to you, and you've refused it, as if saying "hey, I don't like that explanation, give me another one."

Exactly, if I find out that all reasons you give can be applied also to mixes, then it's not enough, and of course I don't like it and I don't think it's the reason you stopped sharing multi tracks.

how easy is it to get to those stems?

Easy as pie, so easy any kid can extract the sound of them with a cable and a PC. Next argument, please.
I think you guys still think it's necessary to break encryption to obtain master tracks...

IT'S NOT THE SAME THING. Stop comparing coke to music. Jeez, please read read his posts, since he's not reading anyone else's. Don't make analogies, metaphors, similes, allegories - OP will not understand.

Yeah, I don't like examples, precisely because they are not what we are talking about. And when I use them, people tend to think about stupid stuff of my example that only happens in my example to prove their point. It's like I try to explain that stealing is bad.

"Stealing is bad. Imagine a kid with a new bike, happier than ever, riding all over the city. Suddenly, a robber takes her bike using his force and run away. The kid feels bad, it's not right to steal."

I bet my life someone would come and say "but the dad of the kid may be is a bad person and the money he used to buy him a bike comes from drugs. The robber is being a good person by doing it". It happened something like that in my example of stealing money from nowhere. Anyways, I'm gonna talk about that concert example.

Well, C3 team may have the key to open that backdoor and watch the show, but even kids know that there's a always window (record the output audio from your console in practice mode) open for air circulation that you can access from the building next to the show build. It takes 5 minutes more to access to the show to the exact same position C3 team are, but you don't need any kind of key at all, and you access and get the same result.

The key is all the stuff you guys know to break the encryption, and the window is going to practice mode and record the output audio of your console, which can give you even lossless results, but you don't even need that at all. AND your example involves money, the real one here not. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter how many people access to the show using the backdoor, cause we're talking about a show is always sold out, so no one loses money at all. In the real case too, Harmonix does not loses money for what you do, or you did.

And no, I read all of your stuff, I read it so much I try to reply to every single different idea or statement you make. You are the one that seems to ignore my replies pulling down your arguments.

More than 300 millions of consoles sold
+
I don't know, more than 20, 30, even more, I don't know, million Guitar Hero's sold + Rock bands
+
A weird gadget called capture, that kids don't know at all
=
those secret ultra difficult to get master tracks, not supposed to be outside the game

Unless you encrypt the ears of the users, it's going to be SO, SO, SO easy to extract master tracks if you use them in any kind of media. The time you can hear an isolated master track, or just like 70% isolated from the rest of the mix, you're done, it's going to be so easy to record it and make mp3 of them.

YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qz7UxB2EQk
Description:
To help learn the bassline from Enter Sandman, I isolated the track in Rockband and played it out at a slower speed, then used it as a follow-along guide to teach myself on the real bass. Rockband is a great teaching tool for learning to play your fave songs on the bass[damn guys, this kid is Satan] , and you can slow it down to a speed just right for learners. I think I missed a note, but I must have grabbed a piece of it because it gave me 100% (on expert).

Fun and educational. :D


That's the exact same thing I do, the EXACT same thing I do. Instead of using the dumb interface of Guitar Hero or Rock Band (which by the way I have almost any single version of them, and I have also the Wii, the PS3 and the PS4), I use a PC, which is quite more powerful and way faster. But hey, look at that kid, he is so dangerous, encrypt the encryption so he never gets to the master tracks you got by breaking the encryption and getting to the same level this kid is. It's people like this kid why you encrypt them, right TrojanNemo?
You see that kid? Harmonix want him dead, deader than deader. He is so evil, he is driving all the musicians crazy, all the producers are nuts because of him. Hey, suprise, I'm that kid.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby The_Phaser » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:13 pm

My friend, I have filled in multitracks you have wanted in the past for bluzers rock band thread. But when you record the songs from a console to pc, it is not lossless. Not even 1:1 copies. The moggs in the game or encrypted ogg files barely even worth 128 CD qulaity. So when you download a multitrack that is in wav or flac, all you are getting is upscaled formats. As someone who has been ripping for a number of years, trust me. I know. The fact that C3 encrypts there songs are for the same reason as bluzer using tracks where the vocals are mixed to the extras track. Cause they are tired of people stealing and sharing and claiming it's there stuff. Or that it's exclusive. TrojanNemo has every right to be uptight about this. Instead of having this thread degrading there work and efforts to improve how con files are used, how bout searching the net for an answer to what you wish to know. You'd rather spend hours going over this thread instead of hours using google to find what you need. Good day.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:25 pm

The_Phaser wrote:But when you record the songs from a console to pc, it is not lossless. Not even 1:1 copies. The moggs in the game or encrypted ogg files barely even worth 128 CD qulaity. So when you download a multitrack that is in wav or flac, all you are getting is upscaled formats.


100% correct, and that doesn't even account for bleeding, which is present in any track and which you need to minimize in some ways. Any ripping from a videogame is perfectly fine for a "I wanna hear this instrument isolated" scenario, and YouTube is more than fine for that case. You got some bleeding, you got subpar quality but you don't care, you still can hear the instrument perfectly fine. Anything not available on YouTube and that was used for a C3 song is evidently rare enough to warrant encryption. :) Thanks for making the point of quality of the recording, it's an important one.

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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:13 am

OK' whatever, you're all C3 members again ignoring my arguments against yours. First it costs lots of money, then there are only a few sources (one source literally), then it has nothing to do with illegality, then you think only you guys can provide master tracks out of the game, then I am the only one that don't understand nothing, then master tracks are really, really hard to find, then they are not supposed to be out there, then you can steal master tracks and music industry would go to hell because of you (you only can really steal master tracks if C3 members are the ones who provide master tracks, there's no other way at all to obtain those master tracks), then if you obtain a master track by recording the audio output, well, the quality is not enough... You're funny.

Recording directly to a PC may be is not the best option, but I just said that so C3 team really can see that any 8 years old kid can obtain isolated master tracks from game.
Then why they are not everywhere, like albums, songs, mp3, etc?
Because there's no demand at all about it, it's something only a musician or a curious guy would want to listen to, that's why.

But, I'm telling you, a capture card, like Elgato HD, that obtains the audio directly from the HDMI, as well as the video (images, even 60fps), provide a very high quality audio cause I've tried it myself. And you could totally use that to steal a master track and make it yours, if you're an useless piece of sh*t. When you capture a video game, what really worsens is the image quality. The audio is brilliant.

And, "The Phaser", I thanked you, or bluzer, all the work, and I'm happy with you all, you're saving me lot of time, cause if I hadn't discovered this page, I would still be recording with my Elgato HD60 all the different practice mode of every single instrument of every single track I want to listen to.

And that's the first thing I thought about: "stealing" and sharing their content. I am an uploader too, I upload films, most of the time weird films that are only in one language, and make them DUAL, synchronizing all the audio and subtitles. A really time consuming "hobbie". I do that so I can have myself in my native language and in original film's language films I love, and also for friends (they request me films), family, and all the world, cause I share them in communities. Personally, I don't give a single flying pink pig if someone download all my work and share it through torrents and web pages where I don't share them. Indeed, I feel good about that, cause my work gets to more people. I neither care if they credit me or not, I don't care about that at all. I don't do this for credit or nothing, I just select a film I want to have DUAL, download it from russian torrents (yeah, they almost always have the best quality out there), remove russian language and add the original film language and my native language, and add subtitles for both languages. It's really tough to sync all of that, and time consuming too, but I don't care, I want it. Once I have it, I share it online so people can watch it thanks to me, and that's it. I don't have a donate account, I don't earn a single penny by downloads... nothing. I think this way: OK, now that I have it, it's a shame only me can enjoy it, after all the work I put on it. So let's share it to the world.
Nevertheless, and I don't know why, some uploaders friends of mine get so pissed off when someone "steal" their film and upload it in other web page. They don't lose nothing, no one loses nothing (well, notice all of this is illegal and some downloaders, may be, would buy the Bluray film), but they still get pissed off. Sometimes I've talked to them and discussed about this, and they can't really give a solid reason why they get pissed off, and admit that at the end it's not that bad if someone does that. Even if someone that steals your work you share for free sells it, instead of sharing it, it's not that bad at all, unless you are doing this for the money. Although when money comes to play, I get kind of pissed off because they're selling my work for money, they are selling something I gave them for free, and I want it to be free.
Aaaaaanyways, this was rejected by C3 member TrojanNemo. Of course that pisses them off, but he textually said people like me are the reason they're not sharing multi tracks. People like the kid in the video I posted in my last message.

I'm not degrading their work at all, damn. I'm asking them why. And they come up with a new argument that makes no sense to me. I though Harmonix or some company messaged them and threaten them about closing their site if they don't stop sharing that. But that's not either.

He accusing me that what I was doing is wrong, that the whole community don't like I use master tracks to listen to them in my PC, that they don't condone my behavior, threatening me with banning me because of my attitude of use them they way I use them, he accusing me that I'm not supposed to do that, he accusing me I'm the reason they stopped, all of that, is the reason I created this post, cause I didn't understand anything.

You have a nice day too, Phaser, and you know and bluzer knows I've thanked you always your work.
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Maartah
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby Maartah » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:03 am

I enjoy this thread
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